The Response On Virginity

To continue from the previous post.

I’ve covered Debt, I’ve covered Tattoos, so what about virginity?  I was again surprised at the overall reaction to it, that declared the emphasis on virginity was too shaming to other women.  It was no longer a practical matter of what kind of person you might want to marry, but an issue of turning away people from God’s grace.

How?

Here is the beginning of Lori’s article:

Do you know how much more attractive debt-free virgins (without tattoos) are to young men? Unfortunately, there are so few of these types of young women anymore because of the high costs of college (debt) and sexual promiscuity even within those in the church. As believers in Jesus Christ, we need to live in a way that is pleasing to Him because His ways are the best. He calls debt a burden and urges us to live lives of sexual purity.

Lori Alexander

Promiscuity means that someone is very casually engaging in sexual relations with other people.  Multiple other people.

To do that within the Church is simply disgusting.  This article is not talking about people who were non-virgins before coming into the Church, nor the past, nor those outside of it, but about people who call themselves Christians and yet are presently and actively disobeying God’s law.

It’s a fact.  If you are sexually promiscuous while calling yourself a Christian you are a freakin’ moron dishonoring God!

(Present tense.  People seemed to forget that part, huh?)

Actively engaging in immorality within the Church is a huge problem!

And the end of her article:

Keep a long-term vision of your life and how you hope it will be someday instead of acting upon all of the “what ifs…?” that many will throw at you.  Trust God with your life, study the Word, and take the narrow path that leads to life. Stay virgins until marriage, out of debt, and don’t get tattoos!

It’s practical advice even if the tattoos are a subjective matter.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that a lot of young Christians prefer the idea of marrying a virgin.

I certainly want a virgin husband.

Does this mean I think other men won’t be accepted by God?

This is where everything just…fell apart.

Somehow, there was a lack of reading comprehension…

People took “Men prefer these kind of women” in an advice article on marriage preparation and switched it to “God wants these kind of women,” and made it about salvation kind of mixed with marriageability.  But really, it’s about salvation.

Both Phylicia and Sheila Gregoire referenced Philippians 3 where Paul talks about how he could have clung to his righteousness as the best Pharisee ever–but wait!  Righteousness is only through Christ!  The works of a Pharisee are worthless garbage.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

[…]

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

I think he’s talking about how being a even a Pharisee can’t save you from the Law, your works can’t save you.  Only Christ can.

The original article was about what some people prefer when they look for a potential spouse.

You could argue that not all men prefer debt-free virgins sans tattoos, but, it’s hardly a crazy idea for some average, young Christian to think that, man or woman.  I agree with such basic preferences.

Phylicia:

 I am grieved for every unbelieving woman who reads that article and thinks Jesus Christ is in the business of tattoo-removal and debt-consolidation before you can approach Him.

How did this…?  What?

Would telling a man to stay chaste and not watch porn in order to improve his chances at dating Christian women in any way derail unbelieving men away from the Gospel if they saw such advice?  If they were trying to look up what Christianity is all about?

Is it shaming to say I don’t want to date a man who is unchaste?  Or is that perfectly sensible given that I have maintained such character and may even had an above average boost of help from the Holy Spirit.  My standards are high.

I am grieved for every unbelieving man who thinks Christianity teaches that women are subservient, second-class, and less-than.

I certainly understand the concern over legalism, because I do think the quoted lady in Lori’s article was off-base on some of her assertions.  But I saw enough consideration on Lori’s part that it did not bother me nearly as much as it could have, despite my own sensitivity to the topic.

We are equal partners in the Great Commission and as such there is no additional requirement for gospel obedience than a heart surrendered to Christ.

THIS WASN’T ABOUT REQUIREMENTS FOR GOSPEL OBEDIENCE!

WHAT IS GOING ON???!!!!

(Humans being humans, that’s what. xD)

God is grieved by these additions to the simplicity of faith. It is a distraction from what really matters.

*ISTP Brain Fumes* But what if some people need concrete examples and advice for how to attract somebody when they grow up, instead of vague Intuitive notions, oh ENTJ?!  (Every time I talk to an NTJ they skip over digging deeper into the particular matters I’m trying to get concrete examples for, and they go for the generic, basic advice.)

I’m slightly more amused at this one just cuz I see this pattern of personality difference so VERY clearly….I mean, it’s kinda painful (cuz I never get good advice), but it is SO CLEAR what is happening!

Okay, bonus on analyzing the personality differences of all these writers:

 In the name of Christianity, however, it articulated rules which are found nowhere in Scripture. I’ve heard all these arguments before: “If you go to college, you’ll prioritize your career over your kids.”

I’m just gonna guess that Lori might have high Fe, and thus is very family focused, kids over career, etc. (and not understanding people who choose otherwise) vs. the Te dom who is Out There Getting Stuff DONE! And gets annoyed at what sounds like an insipid life.

(Not that everyone with high Fe will be this way, but it just seems way more likely, don’t it?)

Me the ISTP: Wow, this is all so interesting I feel like I can keep writing without the need to rush towards explosions and apocalyptic battles with aliens.  Weird.

*

Sheila:

That being said, virginity is not the be all and end all.  And, in fact, ultimately virginity means nothing. It’s just a pile of horse manure.

o.0

That phrase–“I consider them garbage”–is better translated “a pile of dung”. All of the things that made him “righteous” are actually a pile of dung compared to what? Knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.

[…]

The boxes don’t matter. They are a pile of dung compared to knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Let’s teach our kids how to recognize people who truly know Jesus, not how to run after virgins.

Why.

Why.

Why?

Okay, first of all, on both their counts, bad use of Paul’s writing.  The original article was marriage advice for Christians just entering the dating scene.  And even if you disagree with parts of it, how can it be about salvation and the resurrection of the dead?!!

However what has particularly aggravated me is Sheila’s flippancy towards virginity.  It absolutely feels flippant.

I don’t know about you, but I feel like I’d trust a virgin to be controlled by the Holy Spirit more than someone presently engaging in immoral behavior.  In the Church.

Does it really mean nothing?  I certainly don’t think it’s the end-all-be-all, but is everything either the Ultimate Goal OR Absolutely Nothing?

Now, I want to quickly interject here and note that Katie also had some similar thoughts, that purity is greater than virginity.  But she didn’t really say it was worthless manure…

A while ago she made a video about this aspect, and I could understand that if virginity was hammered into your mind as the end-all-be-all goal in the purity movement with all its over the top, cheesy…over-emphasis of it…?  I don’t know what it was like, I can just get that too much of Rules Here, can mess things up for people.  But I think the church I grew up in didn’t have get extra emphasis on Purity Talks, and if someone had a purity ring, it was not common.  It was like everyone was just too shy to date in youthgroup, so no one did, and no one got in trouble.

Instead, I got the “The job of kids is to get good grades” sermons, so when I struggled with school even a little bit, I thought THE WORLD WAS ENDING!!!!  There’s my sore point!

Anyway, all this to say, I was willing to listen to Katie talk about how things seemed unbalanced and not right in the church culture.  And I will add that I’ll keep watching her channel as well as reading Phylicia’s blog.

But…saying virginity is “just a pile of horse manure.”

That is something I am slightly angry about.

Maybe I’m biased cuz I’m a virgin, but I think it’s more to do with knowing that the covenant of marriage and sexuality are something sacred and they aren’t merely nothing, even if works can’t save you.  But it ain’t about works saving you.

It’s about concretely following God and His commands.  Staying chaste, being faithful, those all still count because in Heaven we will get a reward for our good works.  And it does does generally offer better stability for a marriage.  I do not know who my future husband is, but I’ve been waiting for him for seven years and I sure hope he’s been waiting for me too.

It’s not about salvation, it’s about growing up with God and still trusting Him as an adult as I see a world with utterly alien values to me.  Why would anyone have premarital sex, I do not know.

Why any Christian would engage in such things, I really don’t know.

It’s a great irony that Paul’s writing was incorrectly used to suggest that virginity is nothing, that somehow you can’t just balance how it is discussed with purity so people aren’t stung with it if they have past mistakes.

But it should sting intensely if someone in the Church is throwing it away.

You’re kinda actually supposed to be excommunicated from the Church for it until you repent.

1 Corinthians 5

Read that and tell me Paul would decry this for “shaming people” away from the Gospel instead of keeping the Body of Christ pure.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[b] whom you are to judge? 13 God judges[c] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

– I Corinthians 5:9-13 ESV via Bible Gateway (Added bolding)

Guard your hearts.  Guard your bodies as a living sacrifice.  There are some strong commands against sexual immorality in this overall passage.  Like I Corinthians 6:13-20.

Be pure in word and deed.

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